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MaryJane's avatar

One just has to wonder what the world would have looked like if not for NATO / CIA. Is there at least ONE war that was not a direct result of their involvement and / or provocations?

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epimetheus's avatar

Well, that's a good question--also: one impossible to answer.

I suppose that, yes, things may have been worse, but then again, they may not.

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Rikard's avatar

A lot of other wars with even more death and destruction. Korea would be a chinese province, for starters. Cuba would be a soviet military camp. Jugoslavia would still be at war. Turkey, Syria, Irak and Iran would be brawling 'til Kindom come. Israel would not exist and jws would only live as isolated enclaves in the US. Palestine/Israel would be the same off again-on again war it's been since Alexander or Ramse II. Japan and the Philippines would probably be under direct US military rule. Australia and New Zeeland would have to stand ready to repel chinese invasion.

And the Soviet Union would still be around, probably. I'm no fan of NATO or the inept amrican all thumbs colonialism and cultural imperialism (not a phrase often seen since the seventies, that one) but the alternative was worse. It's like Finland's situation 1941: accept german aid, or be steamrolled by Stalin's hordes of pressganged conscripts.

The main reason we can heap scorn on the US (apart from its own actions) is that it's also the player we know the most about. The french and the british have learned to profit from the crumbs left after the US runs rampant on some issue or other, so they and others like them (Hello SAAB! Hi there Ericsson! How's business in Yemen? Helped Saudi bomb any more children this week?) just slither by undetected by the mainstream public consciousness.

At last, that's what I think. But I'm happily wrong.

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paolo's avatar

NO one according to Historians as for Killing Hopes...

As the nice article above explain, they are everywhere. Without US plan and money: No ISIS, No German re united, no most of the ex USSR republics in the Nato, No EU expansion to east, and so on. No Euro currency BTW...

AS long as US can plan and build an enemy outside US borders they do enjoy playing the role since 1945.

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epimetheus's avatar

Re-reading your comment, I'm struck by the 'they are everywhere' issue. It's almost as if US-dominated 'Western Civ' is morphing into something like, say, 'the Borg', and perhaps it's because now the technological possibilities of doing so exist?

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Rikard's avatar

OT, but it relates to my hijacking the last thread re: Sweden's freedom of speech laws, press laws etc.

The vote was held today on yet another incremental stifling of free speech, namely to make it illegal to report on and share information about people convicted for crimes. The socialists wanted to protect criminal by making it illegal for private citizens to investigate say their babysitter or such if they had prior convictions. The true reason is of course to protect and mke secret the shockingly huge numbers of crimininals in the socialist democrat party.

It was defeated! They lost the vote in parliament! One small victory might turn the tide!

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epimetheus's avatar

Oh, well, that's good news.

I may be overly pessimistic, but I suspect that there's so much inertia (and sunk investments) in this entire 'system' that it probably won't make a difference. The judiciary has decayed to such an extent that even if the law changed today, most judges would 'interpret' it still like before (see the 'abortion debate' in the US for a telling example).

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Rikard's avatar

Maybe, but the reason I'm hopeful this might be the crest of the wave before it breaks, is, even regime loyal publications, editors and journalists was against the change.

And even more telling, state TV and radio journalists where too. Even their most repugnant members, the ones who clamoured for denying un-jabbed people any medical aid for any cause.

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epimetheus's avatar

I hope that you're right, and in any case, this will go only for as long as it's possible to do so: once the music stops, and once everyone has noticed, things will change swiftly.

Get ready for Eastern Europe in 1989-style revolutionary changes. For once, the 'backward' West will catch up with reality, even though I suspect that won't be pretty.

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paolo's avatar

Txs Epimethus, nice and very interesting piece!

I didn't know about RAND and I found it very important to understand how and who.

But I disagree with some readers: US Empire is here to stay, unfortunately, technology made very easy: just watch the narratives on Covid and Ukraine since last 30 months...

They planned and built the online media Empire since 2000 and now they own the worldwide information and propaganda network, Scroogle, Fakebok, will see if Twitter will change or not and so on.

I make you a little example: today everybody was joking or publishing about unreal Gates's covid, but not even a reader commented, on one of the "used to be critic" newspaper online. At 7pm I was the first...

US prints fake money, create artificial inflation, build criminal financial tools as Derivatives and Option transforming a Stock Market in a Gambling Market. If you know Twitch, check the channel were videogame players "play"streaming live with currency and stock/options/derivatives...

Who did invent, planned, financed all of this? Russia? ha,ha,ha China? hahha EU? ha, ha,ah

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epimetheus's avatar

Paolo, that's very kind to say: thanks a lot!

RAND is among the key 'NGOs' to know, and their 2019 publication is like a script that 'foresees' a lot of the events in Eastern Europe.

I'm with you on this one (and the above comment about the US being here to stay).

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Rikard's avatar

Barbarossa is twitching in his sleep it seems. Romanian and german forces rolling towards Kishinev seems eerily familiar to me.

I wonder... will the US realise they need to get India to rattle China's cage good and hard to make Xi's gang stop propping up Russia via trade?

The americans have made the usual mistake of all empire builders: trying to be everywhere, on every front, thus opening up the option for opponents to simp,y make holding the front increasingly expensive for diminishing returns.

'Scuse me, Pyrrhus calling on line 2.

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epimetheus's avatar

Given the decay among US elites (ahem), well, I doubt it.

I do think, though, that in terms of the US strategy to more firmly subdue Europe, this entire shitshow is an astounding success.

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Rikard's avatar

Yes, and that's the entirely wrong focus for the US as such - and for their corporations too. Europe is no threat to US hegemony - excepting Russia we are nowadays a continent devoid of expansionist ideals, and Russia's expansionism has been unavoidable ever since Sweden and Poland ceased being military contenders to it; regardless of various policies and politics - history is all the proof russians need to start wars to maintain access to the sea. It is analogous to the tangle regarding the Suez canal when Britain, France, Egypt and Israel all had their fingers in the pie, or the US control of the Panama canal zone; imagine the US reaction if the neigbouring states delivered a united message and put the canal one under joint Central American control... realpolitik simply is, as I used to annoy my professors by saying.

USA has three real contenders (I'm using the open-ended perspective, not the "next election cycle" or something equally inane): China through sheer demographics alone, India for the same reason plus India lacks China's stifling Confucianism instead being dynamic and creative, and the Middle East due to the nature of islam and the past fifty years of british, french, german and american meddling in internal affairs, perceived as well as real.

Europe may be a competitor in markets and business, but united or divided it is no threat.

Tinfoil-time: which European nations contributed the most to the Holocaust save Germany? And which European nations are the target of massmigration these past 20 years? And from which groups come the financing, lobbying and and active support and organisation of said transiting of migrants?

That's a very >very< dangerous question. Though consider this: if my people had suffered the same, and I and a select group of likeminded people gathered and pooled our resources, not in some grand slam plan, but just a general agreement to actively try to bring about the old enemies' doom by any means, even if it take a century - I would jump at it both feet first.

Justice is revenge and vice versa after all. But as I said, that's a real big tinfoil-hat I just made.

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paolo's avatar

Interesting point but I disagree because technology: you're absolutely right if war/terror/coups were still made by human beings/soldiers/tanks/... But today technology and especially space and satellites allow USA Empire to be under control almost with one finger only

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epimetheus's avatar

It's like in that old movie, 'The Wizard of Oz': that works only as long as we'd let it continue. Like Dorothy, we always had the way out…

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