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Kazimir Malevitch's avatar

Txs, interesting I'll finish to read soon.

But how to discuss this war without mentioning the evil State behind this war that is not Putin for sure, but that pedo of Biden or that criminal of Obama before him.

USA have planned bio weapon, financial crisis, wars, terrorist attacks by US financed groups. I mean Nazi Ukrainians are same as ISIS, all made in USA, I saw horrific pictures and video of civilians and soldiers they cut throats to, as Al Queida does...

Until USA is like has been in the last 100 years we all in Europe are in danger! USA have planned this war since 9/11 to weaken Europe! We must end USA as it is and have been after WWII: an Empire of criminals. All the rest is bullshit, is useless. I mean, what else we need to understand the last bloody criminal 75 years of their history?

We, in Europe, should start an Anti American huge campaign as it was in the 60s and 70s. As it is now we have nothing to loose and everything to gain. And should start, as it was, in the Universities again and spread in the rest of the society.

And BTW, I don't care of anything else than stop Sanctions to Russia and stop helping those Ukrainian criminals that before the war were one of the worst country around, money laundry and just a bunch of criminals or nazi. As I always ask to europeans: " Why do you care of Ukraine? What's your interests in Ukraine?" No answers... no one have a good valid reason at all, 99,99%. And the 00,01% is either a fascist or have strange business there.

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epimetheus's avatar

I'm with you, Kazimir, when it comes to the categorisation of the criminal enterprise masquerading as a benign 'force for good' (probably™), yet, as bad as things are, here's what I'm still struggling to answer: would it have been 'better' without the U.S. after 1945?

I think it depends on whom you ask: Koreans, Iranians, Indonesians, Argentinians, Brazilians, and many more in 'the Third World' (it's the 'Global South' now) would quite certainly answer this one without either hesitation or ambivalence such as the one I just expressed.

To me, it's a bit like, well, the chicken are coming home to roost now, and part of 'our' indignation stems from the fact that Europeans were kinda o.k. with the crimes and atrocities committed in part in our names as long as these policies affected extra-European peoples. Now, however, the shoe is increasingly on the other foot, hence the indignation.

Note that this doesn't mean we shouldn't be working against this, but we'd better make sure not to make this about 'Europeans' only, but to at least try to rebuild a wider community of those affected.

I know, call me an idealist or dreamer, but as long as this is a 'uh-oh, the US are so mean to us', everything is doomed to fail. There's but one chance, I suspect, and that would be to reach out to esp. India, China, Russia, and all other countries who might have an interest in moving towards more multilateralism, but it only works if Europeans quickly get rid of their virtue-signalling righteousness.

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Kazimir Malevitch's avatar

Yep, like the last part of your thoughts, as I know mainly the facts regarding my country, I should say that our politicians did try to have that multilateralism, they tried to have a european approach and different way to judge and relate to the rest of the world. US killed through Mafia a conservative great manager Mattei, that was making our OWN interest in the energy business...

But after all the Nato/US terrorism in my country between 1969 and 1980, it wasn't that easy, and many of the EU leaders just watched the sad show, without moving a finger. Or may be helping the US to put my country on the knees...

But a part from personal experiences, I think that everything started with the end of Vietnam war where USA did a so ridiculous performance that they decided to get in full Fascist/Nazi mode. Their problem was Europe as it was, made of different States, with different opinions on US wars and their policies. So it came the European Community that was/is not an european dream at all. USA have planned EU together with US and european corporations to get in control of all the policies: Covid, Internet, Censorships, Propaganda, Ukraine war are the clear demonstration on how it well works. Corporation monopolies more and more in the hand of Blackrock, Vanguard, Gates Found. et all. Wall Street made the financial rules not Regulators... they planned the crisis of 2008/9

If not, dear Epimetheus, why Nato wasn't declared dead in 1991 when Gorbacev signed the end of USSR?

Europeans have had a great chance at that time, begging of '80s and '90s, but they failed to build a complete independence from USA.

So I'm glad you're a dreamer, but I have seen so many dirty things from the end of '70s until today that I'm not anymore.

When we were marching protesting in the streets at that time, my preferite slogan was: " NO STATE NOR CHURCH ! " I'll stick with it 45 years later! 😉

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epimetheus's avatar

Look, I'm about as much a 'dreamer' as I'm aware of the constraints of realpolitik.

If any other player (e.g., China, Russia, India) would endeavour to 'help' Europeans, there'd have to be something in it for them, too. The most important thing, to me at least, is to re-gain self-respect, as individuals and as nations; right now, 'Europe' doesn't mean a thing; it's hollowed out.

The first (and probably hardest) thing that needs to be done is to at least try to re-inspire Europeans; I'm not the first to point out that the bourgeois world of the 19th century is gone, hence this is more to the point of me saying I'm unsure it can be done, if attempted. Perhaps this is what Spengler and his acquaintance Weber wrote about--not the 'decline' of the West, but the transition to its eventual conclusion ('Vollendung').

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Rikard's avatar

Tangentially related, and rather interesting:

[https://yle.fi/news/3-12670239]

"NBI suspects arms sent to Ukraine might be in criminal hands"

That was this Sunday. On Monday, this happened:

[https://yle.fi/news/3-12672122]

"National Bureau of Investigation: "No evidence" that donated weapons have been smuggled from Ukraine to Finland"

Looks like Ahlgren (the police investigator in question) was given a talking-to between Sunday and Monday? Now then, who could be interested in creating this kind of confusion as to the inevitability of military equipment being sold by ukrainians to criminals and islamic terrorists in Scandinavia, the Baltic states, Poland and Germany?

While the energy, production and supply issues certainly are important in the larger scope, things such as this has got a much more immediate impact on our daily lives here in Europe's most dangerous and violent nation.

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epimetheus's avatar

Oh, there was something like the inner-city riots in Sweden last weekend in Austria: riots in Linz, most of which, early media reports held, were instigated by asylum-seekers. Needless to say, this was suppressed in a likewise manner to the one you mentioned.

The notion of weapons 'from Ukraine' is never discussed in Austrian or German media. By the way, the Swiss 'welcome' everyone who is 'in-migrating'--and quickly help them across the German border. (It would seem that the Swiss authorities are smarter than the rest.)

Life will certainly become more dangerous before too long, esp. in those countries that don't 'expect' it. So, wilful blindness will breed a lot of 'instantaneous' resentment, which can then be exploited politically to distract the population from other things.

The more things change, you know, the more they stay the same.

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Rick Larson's avatar

What happens to the nuclear plants when there is no way to export the electricity? I've read 'the injection' was forced on all in Ukraine, could be the missing people are just dead.

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epimetheus's avatar

Well, NPPs need electricity in order not to blow up; therefore, lack of electricity export opportunities rank a wee bit further below on my personal list of worrisome priorities…

I'd also think that it takes quite some time and training to work in such NPPs, hence my not-soo-secret hope is, on top of the above and my concerns about Ukrainian shelling of the Zaporozhe NPP, that people who work in NPPs weren't all injected with these products.

Sigh.

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Rick Larson's avatar

Sigh.

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