1939 isn't all that should matter, and we should hold all political leaders to the same standards of int'l law, esp. those who so vaingloriously pontificate in the language of WW2
Great thoughts, epimetheus. I have so many acquaintances who have fallen for the "heroes and villains" story being pushed on them right now, which of course, is nothing more than shadows on the Cave wall. The truth-seekers, such as yourself, know to ask the more pertinent question: "If this is what they want me to see, what do they NOT want me to see?" https://thefreethinker.substack.com/p/how-we-exit-the-cave
Hi James, thanks for your kind words and the link to your very interesting piece. I've been grappling with these questions for some time now; it's one thing to advocate for 'less EU' or 'get out of NATO', but it's very much a different issue to think about how, exactly, this might be accomplished.
Showing swedish otherwise oppositional or in other ways often sceptic or at least thinking persons no matter their educational or professional career/background the data from OSCE yielded terrifying responses:
It is dismissed as not relevant to the war, it is alluded to being russian propaganda, and in some cases there are outright accusations of "Putinism", which apparently means asking people to consider multiple sources, background reasons and so on as vital to trying to come up with ideas how to help - in any little way - to broker a ceasefire and a lasting peace.
Not even the swedish debate in migration, islam and population replacement is as aggressive, spiteful and hatefilled as this. To do anything than express hate and outrage at all things Russian is immediately taken as proof of being a collaborator, to the point that you will be threatened with physical violence from people who under other circumstances (Jemen/Oman, Burma, Indonesia f.e.) make it a point to read up on how the various issues are interconnected.
I have never, in my life, seen anything like this excepting either newsreels from Germany 193- to 1945, or from the islamic world concerning cartoons of their prophet. Ordinary, balanced and sensible people almost frothing and calling for an all-out assault by NATO on Russia, while in the same breath expressing terror about impending nuclear war.
Did people tamp down their analytical thinking skills so hard during he enforced Covid/vaccine-narrative for two years that they are now venting this way?
Right. Putin is evil and must be defeated at all cost. Freeze for Ukraine!!! And while you're at it, you might want to lose your job for Ukraine as well, and do you really need electric lighting and hot water at home? And yeah, I suppose there may be a nuclear war for Ukraine as well. But hey, Putin's evil, so nothing is too much to ask, you see.
Why, thank you, jan van ruth, for sharing your thoughts about evil. You sound like just the kind of person who'd have special insight into the matter. Say, have you beaten up any women lately? A Russian ballerina with some incorrect opinions, perhaps? After all, "she will never learn until she gets the shit kicked out of her, several times," if I may borrow your eloquent turn of phrase, fresh from Gato's stack. Or do you prefer just fantasizing about it for the time being?
the moment one mentions flight mh17, the passenger airplane shot down by russian soldiers over ukrain on juli 17th 2014, killing all 198 occupants, the russian agents go silent and disappear....
for those that do not already know: saint petersburg is the seat of putin' s propaganda division where all the bots are managed.
I always find it funny when people comment on what a terrible person Putin is. Nice people do not become leaders of large, powerful nations. Maybe the Prime Minister of Andorra (Google tells me the current one is called Xavier Espot Zamora) is a good person. Maybe. I wouldn't know. And it's even conceivable (just about, though it's already a bit of a stretch) that the cat lady who's currently the Prime Minister of Finland is a nice enough person. But to rise to the very top of the political system in a country like the United States, or China, or (indeed) Russia, you simply cannot be a "nice person." (Does, say, George Bush - either one - strike you as a "nice person"?)
So, it's not that I think that Putin is nice. It's that saying "he's a horrible person" doesn't give me any useful information. I see little reason to think that he's crazy, or that he likes causing misery for misery's sake. So, that's reassuring. We'll see if that applies to his successor.
Holodomor was never about "Russians starving Ukrainians" as all suffered equally from those Bolshevik policies, Ukraine, Russia's south or Siberia. Same forces that seem intent on starving its citizenry now in all European world (with Russia the only exception, it seems). Why is the 900-day blockade of Leningrad (equivalent of modern-day sanctions) is never brought up, when millions of people were starved to death, by the way (including Putin's little brother)? And back to the question, for who is Putin evil, for Russia's enemies (what does he have to do with holodomor)? Russians have enjoyed the highest standard of living during his rule than any time in Russia's history, so they don't seem eager to go back to the "roaring nineties". Same as people in Donbass don't seem eager to go back to years of relentless horror from constant bombing. Having a cup of coffee with a friend only to see his/her dead body lying on the street later that day was a daily occurrence for them.
(1) The "Putin = Hitler" equation may be ridiculous, but it's also perfectly understandable. You see, there is an enormous amount of anger and frustration in the Western world right now. The reasons are basic Turchin: elite overproduction and popular immiseration. The details vary slightly from one country to another, but that's basically it. Two years of covidian insanity certainly didn't help. So anyway, there's a huge amount of anger floating around, and Putin and all-things-Russian (Russian ballerinas included) are a convenient target. Surely, a much better target than, say, the people who put us under house arrest over a respiratory virus and tried to bully us into submitting to experimental medical treatment, which promptly turned out not to work even remotely like they promised us.
(2) As for international law being for everyone - meh. There's one set of rules for the victors, and another one for the losers. That's why all those Nazis were sentenced in Nuremberg, whereas Truman with his atomic bomb is a hero. It's always been thus, and always will be.
(3) From the Russian perspective, NATO = Nazis. Or maybe it's not equal, but it rhymes. As far as I can tell, memories of the German invasion are still fresh in Russia, and the idea of NATO being stationed in Ukraine sounds ominously close to a repeat of that invasion. And that's the main reason that Putin started this war. So, the Nazi thing goes both ways.
I remember Michael Hudson was saying something along those lines regarding Ukraine and Baltic States. All these countries experienced a sharp drop in their income levels since they turned to the "West", especially Ukraine where 2014 Maydan policies were to drop the standard of living by 50%. How do you make sure people do not complain? By diverting their anger to Russia and starting the war in Donbass, Ukraine in 2014. Ironically, Wikipedia refers to that war as "Russo-Ukrainian" war which you can call this way only if you recognize Donbass as Russian (as the war was between Donbass and Kyiv).
Great thoughts, epimetheus. I have so many acquaintances who have fallen for the "heroes and villains" story being pushed on them right now, which of course, is nothing more than shadows on the Cave wall. The truth-seekers, such as yourself, know to ask the more pertinent question: "If this is what they want me to see, what do they NOT want me to see?" https://thefreethinker.substack.com/p/how-we-exit-the-cave
Hi James, thanks for your kind words and the link to your very interesting piece. I've been grappling with these questions for some time now; it's one thing to advocate for 'less EU' or 'get out of NATO', but it's very much a different issue to think about how, exactly, this might be accomplished.
Showing swedish otherwise oppositional or in other ways often sceptic or at least thinking persons no matter their educational or professional career/background the data from OSCE yielded terrifying responses:
It is dismissed as not relevant to the war, it is alluded to being russian propaganda, and in some cases there are outright accusations of "Putinism", which apparently means asking people to consider multiple sources, background reasons and so on as vital to trying to come up with ideas how to help - in any little way - to broker a ceasefire and a lasting peace.
Not even the swedish debate in migration, islam and population replacement is as aggressive, spiteful and hatefilled as this. To do anything than express hate and outrage at all things Russian is immediately taken as proof of being a collaborator, to the point that you will be threatened with physical violence from people who under other circumstances (Jemen/Oman, Burma, Indonesia f.e.) make it a point to read up on how the various issues are interconnected.
I have never, in my life, seen anything like this excepting either newsreels from Germany 193- to 1945, or from the islamic world concerning cartoons of their prophet. Ordinary, balanced and sensible people almost frothing and calling for an all-out assault by NATO on Russia, while in the same breath expressing terror about impending nuclear war.
Did people tamp down their analytical thinking skills so hard during he enforced Covid/vaccine-narrative for two years that they are now venting this way?
Right. Putin is evil and must be defeated at all cost. Freeze for Ukraine!!! And while you're at it, you might want to lose your job for Ukraine as well, and do you really need electric lighting and hot water at home? And yeah, I suppose there may be a nuclear war for Ukraine as well. But hey, Putin's evil, so nothing is too much to ask, you see.
to be perfectly clear: PUTIN IS EVIL.
Why, thank you, jan van ruth, for sharing your thoughts about evil. You sound like just the kind of person who'd have special insight into the matter. Say, have you beaten up any women lately? A Russian ballerina with some incorrect opinions, perhaps? After all, "she will never learn until she gets the shit kicked out of her, several times," if I may borrow your eloquent turn of phrase, fresh from Gato's stack. Or do you prefer just fantasizing about it for the time being?
mh17 rings a bell?
and how is the weather in saint petersburg?
As I said, I cannot imagine a better person for insight into evil. Thank you so much.
the moment one mentions flight mh17, the passenger airplane shot down by russian soldiers over ukrain on juli 17th 2014, killing all 198 occupants, the russian agents go silent and disappear....
for those that do not already know: saint petersburg is the seat of putin' s propaganda division where all the bots are managed.
for whom?
I always find it funny when people comment on what a terrible person Putin is. Nice people do not become leaders of large, powerful nations. Maybe the Prime Minister of Andorra (Google tells me the current one is called Xavier Espot Zamora) is a good person. Maybe. I wouldn't know. And it's even conceivable (just about, though it's already a bit of a stretch) that the cat lady who's currently the Prime Minister of Finland is a nice enough person. But to rise to the very top of the political system in a country like the United States, or China, or (indeed) Russia, you simply cannot be a "nice person." (Does, say, George Bush - either one - strike you as a "nice person"?)
So, it's not that I think that Putin is nice. It's that saying "he's a horrible person" doesn't give me any useful information. I see little reason to think that he's crazy, or that he likes causing misery for misery's sake. So, that's reassuring. We'll see if that applies to his successor.
maybe people had the time to read up on what happens when you give an inch to a megalomaniac dictator.
munich 1938 ring a bell?
Does it apply to USSR that gave away much more than an inch to Ukraine in 1991?
you might wat to read up on holodomor.
Holodomor was never about "Russians starving Ukrainians" as all suffered equally from those Bolshevik policies, Ukraine, Russia's south or Siberia. Same forces that seem intent on starving its citizenry now in all European world (with Russia the only exception, it seems). Why is the 900-day blockade of Leningrad (equivalent of modern-day sanctions) is never brought up, when millions of people were starved to death, by the way (including Putin's little brother)? And back to the question, for who is Putin evil, for Russia's enemies (what does he have to do with holodomor)? Russians have enjoyed the highest standard of living during his rule than any time in Russia's history, so they don't seem eager to go back to the "roaring nineties". Same as people in Donbass don't seem eager to go back to years of relentless horror from constant bombing. Having a cup of coffee with a friend only to see his/her dead body lying on the street later that day was a daily occurrence for them.
rewriting history i see...
whose history?
Pretty awful, that. Every bit as bad as the Bengal famine of 1943, I dare say.
Masada!
(1) The "Putin = Hitler" equation may be ridiculous, but it's also perfectly understandable. You see, there is an enormous amount of anger and frustration in the Western world right now. The reasons are basic Turchin: elite overproduction and popular immiseration. The details vary slightly from one country to another, but that's basically it. Two years of covidian insanity certainly didn't help. So anyway, there's a huge amount of anger floating around, and Putin and all-things-Russian (Russian ballerinas included) are a convenient target. Surely, a much better target than, say, the people who put us under house arrest over a respiratory virus and tried to bully us into submitting to experimental medical treatment, which promptly turned out not to work even remotely like they promised us.
(2) As for international law being for everyone - meh. There's one set of rules for the victors, and another one for the losers. That's why all those Nazis were sentenced in Nuremberg, whereas Truman with his atomic bomb is a hero. It's always been thus, and always will be.
(3) From the Russian perspective, NATO = Nazis. Or maybe it's not equal, but it rhymes. As far as I can tell, memories of the German invasion are still fresh in Russia, and the idea of NATO being stationed in Ukraine sounds ominously close to a repeat of that invasion. And that's the main reason that Putin started this war. So, the Nazi thing goes both ways.
I remember Michael Hudson was saying something along those lines regarding Ukraine and Baltic States. All these countries experienced a sharp drop in their income levels since they turned to the "West", especially Ukraine where 2014 Maydan policies were to drop the standard of living by 50%. How do you make sure people do not complain? By diverting their anger to Russia and starting the war in Donbass, Ukraine in 2014. Ironically, Wikipedia refers to that war as "Russo-Ukrainian" war which you can call this way only if you recognize Donbass as Russian (as the war was between Donbass and Kyiv).
holodomor!