Obviously, Europeans haven't paid enough attention to the 'Lessons of History', thus we're doomed to repeat the past. Here's another valuable of these lessons: 'Peace to the huts! War on the palaces!'
I am so baffled and shocked that the same ‚liberal‘ people who seemed to be pacifists their whole life now totally agree with sending heavy military equipment to Ukraine. Yesterday I mentioned this topic to a colleague of mine - young, university degree, organic food lover, you know, the kind of type I would locate on the left side of the political spectrum. And he answered that this must be done in order to stop the Russian aggressor. Period. Awkward silence…
I always (on advice from my father who is career military) ask people like your colleague why they do not advocate us engaging Russia (in this case) in actual real combat.
Then I ask: "So, you're okay with us sending materiel and indirectly engaging Russia in war as long as it's not our troops dying?"
That usually shuts down the conversation, unfortunately.
One wonders if they think it’s a big game. Having seen how all these countries have acted over the past three years I can guarantee that they haven’t a clue what they are doing!
Did anyone think to ask about the time it takes to train someone to crew a Leopard II?
Or about the cost, ability and time of manufacture?
Maybe we should all invest heavily in the companies that makes Abrams, as they will be able to gouge the european market when several nations all at once try to buy new tanks.
Well, last time I checked the US trains its tank crews for 22 weeks (5.5 months) before they are deemed 'ready' to actually do military stuff. I doubt that the tank crews are highly effective after this time, so, glorified parking lot drivers?
As to the investment issues, well, I've thought about that, too…
Also, Abrams, Leopard and Challenger has a crew of 4, and apparently Zelensky is getting 59 tanks total this round. So that's 236 tankers to train, excluding anyback-up ones which they must have if there's to be a point to it - a modern tanks are a mite more complex a machine than the WW2-ones. On top of that techs and attendants must be trained too, a logistical depot system to service three different lines of tanks set up (just pray they use interchangeable tools at least), and secure staging areas for spare parts, ammo and so on.
All of which needs to close enough to an active front to do any good (tanks don't get much mileage per Liter...) and be under FlaK-cover, anti-missile cover, et cetera.
Unless... unless the swedish Archer-systems, the HIMARS and so on plus maybe Mirage and/or long range missiles from France will be used in a great effort to establish total air superiority, Desert Storm-style? To be followed by a Blitzkrieg-style attack to encircle and take the russian forces hostage, or force them into Poland/White Russia and surrender.
If that is the idea and it succeeds, expect Russia to go all-in. Given the high degree of ego from all active parties (not the ukrainian civilians), I'd expect our politicos are trying to force the military planners to have either victory or a major offensive scheduled for May 9, Russia's Victory Day.
I know from personal experience that politicians neither know nor realise or understand that all such historical events were either staged or a coincidence.
But anyone can play "Panzer General" from a desktop. If you want to read the musings of someone who does know this stuff for real, look up Karlis Neretnieks.
Given the weight of the Abrams and the Leopard (in excess of 60 tons), that's some hefty bar you set for toy tanks.
Though it would be pure awesome as well as a Classic snub to send a bunch of boxes of Tamiya models to Biden's money launderer-in-office in Kiev, the way king Kinyras of Cyprus did at the Gathering in Aulis.
"Ob's stürmt oder schneit ob die Sonne uns lacht..."
I wonder if the Leopard I and II and the Abrams will handle the ukrainan mud better than the Pz IV, V and VI did. Modern tanks are much, much heavier than even the Tiger was.
I am so baffled and shocked that the same ‚liberal‘ people who seemed to be pacifists their whole life now totally agree with sending heavy military equipment to Ukraine. Yesterday I mentioned this topic to a colleague of mine - young, university degree, organic food lover, you know, the kind of type I would locate on the left side of the political spectrum. And he answered that this must be done in order to stop the Russian aggressor. Period. Awkward silence…
I really wonder if I am losing my mind.
Same here--and I'd posit you're not losing your mind.
Check out this here: https://orf.at/#/stories/3302910/ (for those who don't read German, I'll translate it a bit later…)
I always (on advice from my father who is career military) ask people like your colleague why they do not advocate us engaging Russia (in this case) in actual real combat.
Then I ask: "So, you're okay with us sending materiel and indirectly engaging Russia in war as long as it's not our troops dying?"
That usually shuts down the conversation, unfortunately.
"Conversely, it almost looks as if Europeans are, albeit unconsciously, aiding Russia’s (implicit) war aim of disarming NATO."
Ya think? Hehehe.
Anyway... Ladies and gentlemen, please rise for the national anthem of the People's Republic of China!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UctriMuXYS0
(Just as a reminder of who gains most from all of this...)
They need more and more divide and conquer so people would not rise up against the Davos elites.
One wonders if they think it’s a big game. Having seen how all these countries have acted over the past three years I can guarantee that they haven’t a clue what they are doing!
Well, assuming you're correct, that's even more scary, don't you think?
Apparently, Annalena Baerbock (Die Grünen) declared war on Russia yesterday. Didn't make the mainstream news here.
Same here--Norway's NRK celebrated sending some 6 or 7 tanks to Ukraine.
Life imitates art, I suppose.
Did anyone think to ask about the time it takes to train someone to crew a Leopard II?
Or about the cost, ability and time of manufacture?
Maybe we should all invest heavily in the companies that makes Abrams, as they will be able to gouge the european market when several nations all at once try to buy new tanks.
Well, last time I checked the US trains its tank crews for 22 weeks (5.5 months) before they are deemed 'ready' to actually do military stuff. I doubt that the tank crews are highly effective after this time, so, glorified parking lot drivers?
As to the investment issues, well, I've thought about that, too…
Also, Abrams, Leopard and Challenger has a crew of 4, and apparently Zelensky is getting 59 tanks total this round. So that's 236 tankers to train, excluding anyback-up ones which they must have if there's to be a point to it - a modern tanks are a mite more complex a machine than the WW2-ones. On top of that techs and attendants must be trained too, a logistical depot system to service three different lines of tanks set up (just pray they use interchangeable tools at least), and secure staging areas for spare parts, ammo and so on.
All of which needs to close enough to an active front to do any good (tanks don't get much mileage per Liter...) and be under FlaK-cover, anti-missile cover, et cetera.
Unless... unless the swedish Archer-systems, the HIMARS and so on plus maybe Mirage and/or long range missiles from France will be used in a great effort to establish total air superiority, Desert Storm-style? To be followed by a Blitzkrieg-style attack to encircle and take the russian forces hostage, or force them into Poland/White Russia and surrender.
If that is the idea and it succeeds, expect Russia to go all-in. Given the high degree of ego from all active parties (not the ukrainian civilians), I'd expect our politicos are trying to force the military planners to have either victory or a major offensive scheduled for May 9, Russia's Victory Day.
I know from personal experience that politicians neither know nor realise or understand that all such historical events were either staged or a coincidence.
But anyone can play "Panzer General" from a desktop. If you want to read the musings of someone who does know this stuff for real, look up Karlis Neretnieks.
German tanks? Are we talking real battle tanks, or toy tanks?
Given the weight of the Abrams and the Leopard (in excess of 60 tons), that's some hefty bar you set for toy tanks.
Though it would be pure awesome as well as a Classic snub to send a bunch of boxes of Tamiya models to Biden's money launderer-in-office in Kiev, the way king Kinyras of Cyprus did at the Gathering in Aulis.
Tank for your note, Rijkard. You are quite widely read. You set a high bar for me .....
Tank you back! I'm "cheating", you know. Mom read the entire Iliad and the Odyssey too as a bedtime tale when I was a kid.
Sweet childhood memories--same here. I loved reading these 'myths'.
What else is left to say but:
"Ob's stürmt oder schneit ob die Sonne uns lacht..."
I wonder if the Leopard I and II and the Abrams will handle the ukrainan mud better than the Pz IV, V and VI did. Modern tanks are much, much heavier than even the Tiger was.