I agree with almost everything you say. The reality is that “Palestine” was created to dispossess the Jews 2000 years ago and exists now for the same purpose. What is now called Palestine will become Jordan. In their own words:
Palestinians
* For a start, there is no "State of Palestine." In fact, until 1964, there was not even a "Palestinian people".
* "The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality, today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct Palestinian people to oppose Zionism." — Zoheir Mohsen, Palestinian leader, interview in Trouw, March 31, 1977.
* "For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan." — Zoheir Mohsen, Trouw, March 31, 1977.
There’s no way coexistence can be achieved there, or here. It’s all or nothing. Politics cannot fix it. Heaven help us
I suppose that the best introduction in English would be R.M. Douglas, Orderly and Humane (Yale UP, 2012), which is *very* academic.
Mr. Douglas also penned an guest contribution for, believe it or not, HuffPost back then; it opens like this:
'Omitted from the history books, after WWII, the Allies carried out the largest forced population transfer -- nowadays referred to as "ethnic cleansing" -- in human history. Between 12 and 14 million civilians, the majority women, children and the elderly, were driven out of their homes.'
It gets worst from there on, and it's based on his monograph.
There's also a ton of literature in German available, as well as, of course, a US House Judiciary Report, entitled, 'Expellees and refugees of German ethnic origin'. It's a report of a special subcommittee of the Committee on the Judiciary, House of Representatives, pursuant to H. Res. 238, a resolution to authorize the Committee on the Judiciary to undertake a study of immigration and nationality problems .
I haven't found a PDF or online version, but knowing what I know about the entire sordid affair, I might even speculate as to why…
Really enjoyed this post! I noted your reply to Julie asking for a reading recommendation on post WWII Germany. What would be your tip for the interwar period (EN/DE)?
I suppose my go-to suggestions for Germany and the Germans in the Interwar period would be, for the Weimar period (1918-33), Dirk Schumann's Political Violence in the Weimar Republic (Berghahn, 2009): https://www.berghahnbooks.com/title/SchumannPolitical
As to German-language accounts, I suppose Hans-Ulrich Wehler's Deutsche Gesellschaftsgeschichte (2nd ed., by Beck, https://www.chbeck.de/wehler-ulrich-deutsche-gesellschaftsgeschichte-band-1-5/product/24582) would be as close as possible to an 'authoritative' account, with Heinrich August Winkler's Germany: The Long Road West (trans. OUP, 2006-07) a useful synthesis by a German mainstream historian whose account has been translated into English.
Easy solution: pull all EUropean support for either side(s). Open normal diplomatic relations, normal rules for VISAs for travel, and normal trade relations - and nothing more.
Jews want to displace arabs via settlers, and arabs retaliate? So what? Not our fault, not our problem.
I could go into details but that's the basic sentiment: let them solve their own problems. No-one is asking Turkey and the kurds to solve any lingering resentiment in Northern Ireland after all.
If the US wants to play empire in the sandbox, let them - it'll kill the US all the faster and topple the most incompetent empire the world has ever seen.
Meanwhile - on the EU level to use the uinon for a good purpose: open normal trade relations with Venezuela and offer a mutually beneficial win/win-solution for oil and gas extration and refinement. It'd break any dependency Europe has, re: arabs, russians and americans. The US would object and protest - so what? What are they going to do, piss off their only real ally for real? An ally that has zero need for US "protection" for that matter - the joined military capabilities (excl. nuclear weapons) of the "Baltic Nine" outstrips Russia's and that's before the US-Russia war in Ukraine.
No, leave them at it and let's fix our own homelands instead.
I suspect that doing so (and, in so doing, also re-affirming what used to be called 'Idealism') would have been a tenable position some decades ago. These days, however, with hundreds of thousands marching through Western cities calling for the forced conversion of all the world to Islam, I fear that this is no longer a realistic option.
As to the EU/European issues, spot-on, but since we don't have politicians that care about the peoples' interests (but only Transatlanticist sycophants), fat chance.
I agree with almost everything you say. The reality is that “Palestine” was created to dispossess the Jews 2000 years ago and exists now for the same purpose. What is now called Palestine will become Jordan. In their own words:
Palestinians
* For a start, there is no "State of Palestine." In fact, until 1964, there was not even a "Palestinian people".
* "The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality, today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct Palestinian people to oppose Zionism." — Zoheir Mohsen, Palestinian leader, interview in Trouw, March 31, 1977.
* "For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan." — Zoheir Mohsen, Trouw, March 31, 1977.
There’s no way coexistence can be achieved there, or here. It’s all or nothing. Politics cannot fix it. Heaven help us
Can you recommend a good read on post War Germany & what happened there. Thank you.
I suppose that the best introduction in English would be R.M. Douglas, Orderly and Humane (Yale UP, 2012), which is *very* academic.
Mr. Douglas also penned an guest contribution for, believe it or not, HuffPost back then; it opens like this:
'Omitted from the history books, after WWII, the Allies carried out the largest forced population transfer -- nowadays referred to as "ethnic cleansing" -- in human history. Between 12 and 14 million civilians, the majority women, children and the elderly, were driven out of their homes.'
It gets worst from there on, and it's based on his monograph.
Source: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/expulsion-germans-forced-migration_b_1625437
There's also a ton of literature in German available, as well as, of course, a US House Judiciary Report, entitled, 'Expellees and refugees of German ethnic origin'. It's a report of a special subcommittee of the Committee on the Judiciary, House of Representatives, pursuant to H. Res. 238, a resolution to authorize the Committee on the Judiciary to undertake a study of immigration and nationality problems .
I haven't found a PDF or online version, but knowing what I know about the entire sordid affair, I might even speculate as to why…
Let me know if you want 'more'!
Snap! I wanted to write the exact same comment :)
Hi Epimetheus,
Really enjoyed this post! I noted your reply to Julie asking for a reading recommendation on post WWII Germany. What would be your tip for the interwar period (EN/DE)?
Hi Witzbold,
I suppose my go-to suggestions for Germany and the Germans in the Interwar period would be, for the Weimar period (1918-33), Dirk Schumann's Political Violence in the Weimar Republic (Berghahn, 2009): https://www.berghahnbooks.com/title/SchumannPolitical
And for the Nazi period I'd recommend Milton Meyer's They Thought They Were Free: https://press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/511928.html
As to German-language accounts, I suppose Hans-Ulrich Wehler's Deutsche Gesellschaftsgeschichte (2nd ed., by Beck, https://www.chbeck.de/wehler-ulrich-deutsche-gesellschaftsgeschichte-band-1-5/product/24582) would be as close as possible to an 'authoritative' account, with Heinrich August Winkler's Germany: The Long Road West (trans. OUP, 2006-07) a useful synthesis by a German mainstream historian whose account has been translated into English.
Let me know if you'd like 'more' ^_^
Easy solution: pull all EUropean support for either side(s). Open normal diplomatic relations, normal rules for VISAs for travel, and normal trade relations - and nothing more.
Jews want to displace arabs via settlers, and arabs retaliate? So what? Not our fault, not our problem.
I could go into details but that's the basic sentiment: let them solve their own problems. No-one is asking Turkey and the kurds to solve any lingering resentiment in Northern Ireland after all.
If the US wants to play empire in the sandbox, let them - it'll kill the US all the faster and topple the most incompetent empire the world has ever seen.
Meanwhile - on the EU level to use the uinon for a good purpose: open normal trade relations with Venezuela and offer a mutually beneficial win/win-solution for oil and gas extration and refinement. It'd break any dependency Europe has, re: arabs, russians and americans. The US would object and protest - so what? What are they going to do, piss off their only real ally for real? An ally that has zero need for US "protection" for that matter - the joined military capabilities (excl. nuclear weapons) of the "Baltic Nine" outstrips Russia's and that's before the US-Russia war in Ukraine.
No, leave them at it and let's fix our own homelands instead.
I suspect that doing so (and, in so doing, also re-affirming what used to be called 'Idealism') would have been a tenable position some decades ago. These days, however, with hundreds of thousands marching through Western cities calling for the forced conversion of all the world to Islam, I fear that this is no longer a realistic option.
As to the EU/European issues, spot-on, but since we don't have politicians that care about the peoples' interests (but only Transatlanticist sycophants), fat chance.