If, saying if, the mRNA-shots have weakened the immune response to Covid among the elderly in such a fashion it acts like an aggravating factor once infection sets in - well, what then when today's 50+ become tomorrow's 70+?
Another angle, do you know if this is consistent with/for Israel, since they have the world record (I think?) in #of shots per capita?
Well, as a kind of off-the-cuff reply to your hypothetical, I'd say that, judging from my 2+ years of personal experiences in Norway, many 50+ people are not exactly 'healthy'. Their lifestyles are rather too sedentary, the diet too lopsided, and, if long queues outside Vinmonopolet (the Norwegian state monopoly store that sells vine and liquor) are any indication, their consumption of intoxicating substances indicates a lot of reasons why this demographic subset would be more prone to severe disease than, say, people in the 30s and 40s, many of whom have kids at home, i.e., a situation that, by and large, (hopefully) precludes a lot of these excesses.
Be that as it may, your hypothesis is valid, I'd argue, and in this regard, I'd think that it might well be true that the modRNA injections work like a catalyst, i.e., they accentuate pre-existing problems to such a degree that they become quite widespread, esp. in terms of making a lot of problems worse that are quite widely manifest in the 55+ age cohorts, such as hypertension (clotting), cardiovascular issues (same, plus the potential of heart muscle damage following injection), etc.
I'm not aware of such notions in Israel, but I wouldn't be surprised if these indicators would be there, too, but given that Israel gets a lot more sunshine (and hence Vit. D levels must be higher than here), I'd say that comparisons to other northern countries, such as Scotland or Canada would probably be more instructive: but these comparisons are, well, quite grim, I'd say.
The discrepancy in age and age categories between the jewish and palestinian populations makes a lot of comparisons viable, especially since nutrition, income, living conditions, and mRNA-uptake is heterogenous between the groups, which still are very similar regarding genetical heritage.
Much as norwegians and swedes are a good comparison due to the high level of homogenity between the groups, genetically speaking.
Taken together, this line of questioning should be worth-wile for people with the ability and access to sources to make full use such.
As for norwegians buying a lot of booze at Vinmonopolet- you should see them visit Systembolaget, the swedish equivalent. In many smaller tourist-dependent towns such as Funäsdalen (close to Röros in Norway) they have to limit purchases so the store doesn't run out. I've seen norwegians with mobile homes buying whiskey and wine for more than 3 500 euros in one go. Howeverm they don't seem unfit as far as body-shape go, but then again presumably those visiting locations in the fjells are the kind that go hiking as well.
Numbers for obesity and related are tricky: substance abusers, especially alcoholics, skew the data. So does migrants from southern Europe, Africa and the Middle East since the firstborn boy is often spoiled rotten - something I've witnessed many times with students.
In more cases than neither me normy wife can remember, we have heard of colleagues having had to report a family to social services (we've had to do that ourselves during our stints in the school system, for the same reasons) simply due to malnutrition- not that the child/teenager is starving, but the opposite.
Seven-year olds with teeth rotted to stumps since they get fed candy and soda whenever they want. 130-kilo 14-year olds who get to eat what they want as much as they want. Not all families, but certainly a percentage large enough to affect overall stats.
I think numbers for obesity, diabetes et c - lifestyle diseases - needs to be more finely tuned to be meaningful.
Re the Israeli connection, well, I think you're quite spot-on, esp. since their 'jab until kingdom come' (no pun intended) policy was so often cited by all the pro-vaxxing Covid Hawks of all countries. This 'argument' (if it ever was one) is no more, and I cannot recall the last time the topics 'Israel' and 'Covid' appeared anywhere in legacy media. Stranger things have happened.
As to the locals tripping (pun intended) to Sweden (oh, Harry), well, what can I really say? It's super-weird, and while I'm unsure what locals have told me is true (if there'd be booze more readily and cheaply available, 'we'd all binge-drink to death'), I do see a kind of 'correlation' between most Norwegians being at work around 8 a.m. (at least in my super-spoiled field), which you can't really do if you're out drinking the night before (well, I cannot and wouldn't), as opposed to countries with cheaper booze like, say, German-language areas where it's hard to find anyone at a university before 9:30-ish.
As to lifestyles, well, the harrowing details you mentioned aside, I would argue that the older people get, the more sedentary the majority tends to be. Keep in mind, on top of your details, there's also a wealth of other medical issues that cannot easily be spotted, such as Type II diabetes, cardiovascular diseases (or other things, such as gout, which befell a friend who's my age--many years ago; I'm 40, by the way); there's also stress at work as people tend to rise through the ranks, of sorts, as they get older, and, finally, emotional decay/stress at home due to marriage troubles.
Becoming sedentary after retirement is not good. Friend of mine is a construction worker, and as they often work on "ackord", i.e. the faster they work and the more they get done, the higher the pay, they burn calories like crazy and eat accordingly.
Imagine what happens at 65-70 when they retire if they continue eating the same way, but stop burning off the calories. As my friend puts it: "Ka-blammo, instant heart attack!"
My brother works at Lund university, teaching, doing a doctoral thesis, doing the undergrad coursework, raising two kids, and sleeping when he's got a day off so the stress in academia is endemic and intrinsical I think.
And just to brag, when I had my bloodwork done this summer, the tests showed I have levels and quality on par with a well-trained 25 year old man.
Been trying to work that one into conversations all autumn :)
Question - how much of a concern is there about "Long Covid" in Norway or other Nordic countries?
Here in the US it consumes considerable attention from those fearful of Covid, and seems to be used as the counter anytime you present data showing Covid poses near zero threat to anyone under 55 - "What about Long Covid" is the responsorial.
Is this what happens over on your side of the globe too?
Let me walk through typical press coverage in our country:
"Man Who Lost Wife to Long COVID Marries Activist Who Helped Him Grieve in Stunning Sunset Wedding"
>That seems like a pretty stunning and sad story, and I couldn't believe someone could die of Long Covid, wouldn't they simply have died of Covid? A little digging though... you realize she died of suicide.
As someone touched by suicide, this struck a nerve, so I read her public blog https://girltomom.com/about which chronicles her fight against Long Covid which she got in May 2020 (she does note her Covid test was negative though, but she is certain what she is feeling is Long Covid).
This is a very, very sad blog as you go through the entries - especially once you realize she has suffered from Long Covid for close to 30 years, and despite dabbling with every pseudoscience out there (chiropractors, naturopaths, Reiki, acupuncture, etc) hasn't been able to cure it.
At no point though through any of the articles covering this tragic death did a single reporter note that she had Long Covid since the 90's and perhaps the people who suffer from Long Covid might be suffering from Somatic Symptom Disorder.
Oh wow, this is something. I mean, it's sad and joyful, and I certainly didn't plan to spend as much time 'there' as I did.
As I'm not an MD, I'm merely able to point out that 'syndrome' (as in 'Long Covid'), is something, or a couple of things, that medicine cannot accurately pinpoint its origins to. So, if there's something like 'Covid' (which, btw, is derivative, or at least associated with, SARS-Cov-2, i.e., another 'syndrome'), why not add adjectives, too? I mean, if 'Covid' could be 'asymptomatic', why not also 'long'?
Apart from these admittedly 'linguistic' notions, here's something else: we do know, and in fact knew quite early in the 'pandemic', that Covid was something that wasn't that dangerous for the majority of people; now, with Omicron (whatever variant), it's even less so, one would think, but there's this strange age distribution of death from and with Covid, as admitted to by public healthdom.
Sure, exceptions typically prove the rule, but it would appear quite strange, indeed, to consider the question of Long Covid (which, as I'll get into some more detail, is not much of a thing here in Norway where I live, but it is to larger degrees in Austria where I'm originally from). As with many other illnesses--mind you: not an MD--psychic and the psycho-emotional attitudes, or 'preconditions', if you like, of any sudden change in an individual's life play a large and, at times, certainly outsized role.
Consider the mindf****** of the past almost three years (has it been three years already?): if you're disposed towards anxiety, the constant fearmongering and agit-prop by state officials and others will not help; epigenetics ('nurture', or the 'environment') plays a huge role in shaping who we may become eventually, but it also means, that is, to me at least, that it's a combination of body *and* mind that keeps you healthy; you know, enough and regular sleep, emotional stability, decent food choices, and a ton of other things.
Now, I won't mean to be judgemental here, but it would appear that the deceased you mentioned may have had not a very healthy life well before Covid; sure, some part of this is, to my mind, clearly derivative of this wannbe-Hollywood lifestyle, yet I'd also argue, much in line with your comment and, I'd add, the above 'data' relayed by the Norwegian health authorities, that once Covid came around, people--'regular' ones *and* MDs, to say nothing about gov't officials--have seemingly discovered the 'miracle cure' to many, if not most, of their problems: a 'new' thing that could be blamed for virtually everything, ranging from one's long-standing (mental) health issues to public health policy to economics and much, much more.
So, 'Covid', incl. its alleged 'long' garden variety, appears in many cases as a panacea to a wide range of ills, real or perceived; would that mean that there aren't any people who 'truly' suffer from widespread damage from SARS-Cov-2 or Covid? Of course there are, but as any pre-'pandemic' MD would tell you, there's a virtual ton of reasons for suffering from this or that condition, or symptom(s).
Nothing new under the sun, but perhaps 'Long Covid' allows many people to continue to blame it for whatever other set of conditions bedevils them. Welcome, then, to the new age of pre-Enlightenment, I'm almost tempted to state (I'm a historian of late medieval and early modern Europe): 'Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-incurred immaturity' (Unmündigkeit), as Kant would say.
Sadly, 'self-incurred immaturity' appears to be making a return with a vengeance as of late.
If, saying if, the mRNA-shots have weakened the immune response to Covid among the elderly in such a fashion it acts like an aggravating factor once infection sets in - well, what then when today's 50+ become tomorrow's 70+?
Another angle, do you know if this is consistent with/for Israel, since they have the world record (I think?) in #of shots per capita?
Well, as a kind of off-the-cuff reply to your hypothetical, I'd say that, judging from my 2+ years of personal experiences in Norway, many 50+ people are not exactly 'healthy'. Their lifestyles are rather too sedentary, the diet too lopsided, and, if long queues outside Vinmonopolet (the Norwegian state monopoly store that sells vine and liquor) are any indication, their consumption of intoxicating substances indicates a lot of reasons why this demographic subset would be more prone to severe disease than, say, people in the 30s and 40s, many of whom have kids at home, i.e., a situation that, by and large, (hopefully) precludes a lot of these excesses.
Be that as it may, your hypothesis is valid, I'd argue, and in this regard, I'd think that it might well be true that the modRNA injections work like a catalyst, i.e., they accentuate pre-existing problems to such a degree that they become quite widespread, esp. in terms of making a lot of problems worse that are quite widely manifest in the 55+ age cohorts, such as hypertension (clotting), cardiovascular issues (same, plus the potential of heart muscle damage following injection), etc.
I'm not aware of such notions in Israel, but I wouldn't be surprised if these indicators would be there, too, but given that Israel gets a lot more sunshine (and hence Vit. D levels must be higher than here), I'd say that comparisons to other northern countries, such as Scotland or Canada would probably be more instructive: but these comparisons are, well, quite grim, I'd say.
I picked Israel for a number of reasons:
The discrepancy in age and age categories between the jewish and palestinian populations makes a lot of comparisons viable, especially since nutrition, income, living conditions, and mRNA-uptake is heterogenous between the groups, which still are very similar regarding genetical heritage.
Much as norwegians and swedes are a good comparison due to the high level of homogenity between the groups, genetically speaking.
Taken together, this line of questioning should be worth-wile for people with the ability and access to sources to make full use such.
As for norwegians buying a lot of booze at Vinmonopolet- you should see them visit Systembolaget, the swedish equivalent. In many smaller tourist-dependent towns such as Funäsdalen (close to Röros in Norway) they have to limit purchases so the store doesn't run out. I've seen norwegians with mobile homes buying whiskey and wine for more than 3 500 euros in one go. Howeverm they don't seem unfit as far as body-shape go, but then again presumably those visiting locations in the fjells are the kind that go hiking as well.
Numbers for obesity and related are tricky: substance abusers, especially alcoholics, skew the data. So does migrants from southern Europe, Africa and the Middle East since the firstborn boy is often spoiled rotten - something I've witnessed many times with students.
In more cases than neither me normy wife can remember, we have heard of colleagues having had to report a family to social services (we've had to do that ourselves during our stints in the school system, for the same reasons) simply due to malnutrition- not that the child/teenager is starving, but the opposite.
Seven-year olds with teeth rotted to stumps since they get fed candy and soda whenever they want. 130-kilo 14-year olds who get to eat what they want as much as they want. Not all families, but certainly a percentage large enough to affect overall stats.
I think numbers for obesity, diabetes et c - lifestyle diseases - needs to be more finely tuned to be meaningful.
Thanks, Rikard, for the well-considered reply.
Re the Israeli connection, well, I think you're quite spot-on, esp. since their 'jab until kingdom come' (no pun intended) policy was so often cited by all the pro-vaxxing Covid Hawks of all countries. This 'argument' (if it ever was one) is no more, and I cannot recall the last time the topics 'Israel' and 'Covid' appeared anywhere in legacy media. Stranger things have happened.
As to the locals tripping (pun intended) to Sweden (oh, Harry), well, what can I really say? It's super-weird, and while I'm unsure what locals have told me is true (if there'd be booze more readily and cheaply available, 'we'd all binge-drink to death'), I do see a kind of 'correlation' between most Norwegians being at work around 8 a.m. (at least in my super-spoiled field), which you can't really do if you're out drinking the night before (well, I cannot and wouldn't), as opposed to countries with cheaper booze like, say, German-language areas where it's hard to find anyone at a university before 9:30-ish.
As to lifestyles, well, the harrowing details you mentioned aside, I would argue that the older people get, the more sedentary the majority tends to be. Keep in mind, on top of your details, there's also a wealth of other medical issues that cannot easily be spotted, such as Type II diabetes, cardiovascular diseases (or other things, such as gout, which befell a friend who's my age--many years ago; I'm 40, by the way); there's also stress at work as people tend to rise through the ranks, of sorts, as they get older, and, finally, emotional decay/stress at home due to marriage troubles.
Becoming sedentary after retirement is not good. Friend of mine is a construction worker, and as they often work on "ackord", i.e. the faster they work and the more they get done, the higher the pay, they burn calories like crazy and eat accordingly.
Imagine what happens at 65-70 when they retire if they continue eating the same way, but stop burning off the calories. As my friend puts it: "Ka-blammo, instant heart attack!"
My brother works at Lund university, teaching, doing a doctoral thesis, doing the undergrad coursework, raising two kids, and sleeping when he's got a day off so the stress in academia is endemic and intrinsical I think.
And just to brag, when I had my bloodwork done this summer, the tests showed I have levels and quality on par with a well-trained 25 year old man.
Been trying to work that one into conversations all autumn :)
Excellent work.
Question - how much of a concern is there about "Long Covid" in Norway or other Nordic countries?
Here in the US it consumes considerable attention from those fearful of Covid, and seems to be used as the counter anytime you present data showing Covid poses near zero threat to anyone under 55 - "What about Long Covid" is the responsorial.
Is this what happens over on your side of the globe too?
Let me walk through typical press coverage in our country:
"Man Who Lost Wife to Long COVID Marries Activist Who Helped Him Grieve in Stunning Sunset Wedding"
https://www.yahoo.com/now/man-lost-wife-long-covid-212433004.html
>That seems like a pretty stunning and sad story, and I couldn't believe someone could die of Long Covid, wouldn't they simply have died of Covid? A little digging though... you realize she died of suicide.
As someone touched by suicide, this struck a nerve, so I read her public blog https://girltomom.com/about which chronicles her fight against Long Covid which she got in May 2020 (she does note her Covid test was negative though, but she is certain what she is feeling is Long Covid).
This is a very, very sad blog as you go through the entries - especially once you realize she has suffered from Long Covid for close to 30 years, and despite dabbling with every pseudoscience out there (chiropractors, naturopaths, Reiki, acupuncture, etc) hasn't been able to cure it.
At no point though through any of the articles covering this tragic death did a single reporter note that she had Long Covid since the 90's and perhaps the people who suffer from Long Covid might be suffering from Somatic Symptom Disorder.
Oh wow, this is something. I mean, it's sad and joyful, and I certainly didn't plan to spend as much time 'there' as I did.
As I'm not an MD, I'm merely able to point out that 'syndrome' (as in 'Long Covid'), is something, or a couple of things, that medicine cannot accurately pinpoint its origins to. So, if there's something like 'Covid' (which, btw, is derivative, or at least associated with, SARS-Cov-2, i.e., another 'syndrome'), why not add adjectives, too? I mean, if 'Covid' could be 'asymptomatic', why not also 'long'?
Apart from these admittedly 'linguistic' notions, here's something else: we do know, and in fact knew quite early in the 'pandemic', that Covid was something that wasn't that dangerous for the majority of people; now, with Omicron (whatever variant), it's even less so, one would think, but there's this strange age distribution of death from and with Covid, as admitted to by public healthdom.
Sure, exceptions typically prove the rule, but it would appear quite strange, indeed, to consider the question of Long Covid (which, as I'll get into some more detail, is not much of a thing here in Norway where I live, but it is to larger degrees in Austria where I'm originally from). As with many other illnesses--mind you: not an MD--psychic and the psycho-emotional attitudes, or 'preconditions', if you like, of any sudden change in an individual's life play a large and, at times, certainly outsized role.
Consider the mindf****** of the past almost three years (has it been three years already?): if you're disposed towards anxiety, the constant fearmongering and agit-prop by state officials and others will not help; epigenetics ('nurture', or the 'environment') plays a huge role in shaping who we may become eventually, but it also means, that is, to me at least, that it's a combination of body *and* mind that keeps you healthy; you know, enough and regular sleep, emotional stability, decent food choices, and a ton of other things.
Now, I won't mean to be judgemental here, but it would appear that the deceased you mentioned may have had not a very healthy life well before Covid; sure, some part of this is, to my mind, clearly derivative of this wannbe-Hollywood lifestyle, yet I'd also argue, much in line with your comment and, I'd add, the above 'data' relayed by the Norwegian health authorities, that once Covid came around, people--'regular' ones *and* MDs, to say nothing about gov't officials--have seemingly discovered the 'miracle cure' to many, if not most, of their problems: a 'new' thing that could be blamed for virtually everything, ranging from one's long-standing (mental) health issues to public health policy to economics and much, much more.
So, 'Covid', incl. its alleged 'long' garden variety, appears in many cases as a panacea to a wide range of ills, real or perceived; would that mean that there aren't any people who 'truly' suffer from widespread damage from SARS-Cov-2 or Covid? Of course there are, but as any pre-'pandemic' MD would tell you, there's a virtual ton of reasons for suffering from this or that condition, or symptom(s).
Nothing new under the sun, but perhaps 'Long Covid' allows many people to continue to blame it for whatever other set of conditions bedevils them. Welcome, then, to the new age of pre-Enlightenment, I'm almost tempted to state (I'm a historian of late medieval and early modern Europe): 'Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-incurred immaturity' (Unmündigkeit), as Kant would say.
Sadly, 'self-incurred immaturity' appears to be making a return with a vengeance as of late.