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He repeats the war started in 2014 again yesterday in questions in front of building from press:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-72ncM4y4J8

QUESTION: "Over the last year NATO has gone from providing non-lethal assisatance to allies, to providing artillery to tanks - now we are talking about jet aircraft. The Ukraine Contact Group is meeting in NATI headquarters. Why should the public believe that NATO is not at war with Russia?"

ANSWER: "Neither NATO nor NATO allies are party to the conflict. What we do as NATO allies and NATO is to provide support to Ukraine. Ukraine is defending itself.

And of course we have the right to help Ukraine uphold their right for self-defense so NATO NATO allies are not part due to the conflict but we support Ukraine in the right of self defense.

Then of course the type of support we provide to Ukraine has evolved as the war has evolved. In the beginning it was extremely important to provide light anti-tank weapons like the javelins. Then we saw the need for artillery and NATO allies provided more and more advanced systems. Then it became obvious that it was an urgent need for also more advanced air defense systems and NATO allies are now providing Patriots, Samti and other Advanced Air Defense systems Nations. And and now over the last weeks and months allies also agreed to further step up significantly when it comes to heavy weaponry, armored infantry fighting vehicles but also main battle tanks. So yes the type of support has evolved and it will continue.

The war didn't start in February last year, the war started in 2014.

And since 2014 NATO allies have provided support to Ukraine with training with the equipment so the Ukrainian armed forces were much stronger in 2022 than they were in 2020, eh, in 2014. And of course that made a huge difference when President Putin decided to attack the Ukraine."

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Oh wow, so it wasn't a gaffe.

Good to know that Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia, I suppose.

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Shit, Putin! Why u didn't attack in 2015?!!

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Feb 15, 2023Liked by epimetheus

Nice summary and write-up, as usual, thanks!

Mainstream media has been lying to the masses not only in the last 1 year, it's been way longer, but it has become so damn obvious since 2020.

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Feb 15, 2023Liked by epimetheus

Kudos. Well spotted

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Wow, this is really taking gas lighting to the next level:

NATO Secretary General openly states the war started in 2014!?

"Actually, as Winston well knew, it was only four years since Oceania had been at war with Eastasia and in alliance with Eurasia. But that was merely a piece of furtive knowledge which he happened to possess because his memory was not satisfactorily under control. Officially the change of partners had never happened. Oceania was at war with Eurasia: therefore Oceania had always been at war with Eurasia. The enemy of the moment always represented absolute evil, and it followed that any past or future agreement with him was impossible." - 1984 by George Orwell

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Didn’t Russia invade Crimea (part of the Ukraine under international law) in 2014 ?

If I were a Ukrainian, I’d have thought that it was an act of war.

I’m not addressing the merits of the post-USSR borders.

I’m simply saying that the Ukraine, as constituted by international agreements, was invaded by Russia.

Twice

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Firstly, the post is highlighting an egregious about face in narrative by NATO. The MSM studiously avoided the longstanding nature of the military conflict and any discussion of the causes in its framing all last year. Now the Secretary General of NATO bluntly states that it was in fact the case all along.

Secondly, your reply to my comment does not address anything from my comment.

You seem more interested in straw-manning or arguing a seperate point to that featured in the post. Fine that's your perogative. I think commenters here are more interested in Epimetheus' reporting and analysis of the conflict, the media coverage, the propaganda, the geo-political consequences.

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Enlightening video.

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2014 was the year that Russia invaded the Crimea and annexed it from the Ukrainians.

I can understand why some people would think that the Russo-Ukrainian war started with that invasion.

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Feb 15, 2023Liked by epimetheus

2014 was the year when US neocons violently invaded Ukraine and installed their regime in Kiev and immediately started bombing areas that disagreed with the coup, i.e. Russian-speaking areas in the East right next to Russia's border with spillovers to the Russian territory. Turchinov was the guy who gave the order to do the bombing. Overall, it goes back to the illegal USSR break-up of 1991 when the country broke up along artificially created borders thus forming states which never existed as sovereign countries.

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What was ‘illegal’ about the breakup of the USSR in 1991 ?

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There's also the issue whether taking over Crimea was illegal under international law.

The ICJ provides the answer in its advisory opinion on precisely this matter (with respect to Kosovo's unilateral declaration of independence in 2008):

'General international law contains no applicable prohibition of declarations of independence — Declaration of independence of 17 February 2008 did not violate general international law.'

Source: https://www.icj-cij.org/public/files/case-related/141/141-20100722-ADV-01-00-BI.pdf

It's also worth remembering that Donetsk and Lugansk weren't the only break-away regions in 2014/15. So were Crimea and a number of other oblasts, but the Ukrainian troops managed to regain control.

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The issue with all these referendums in ex-USSR, is that it's a two-way street. If you declare referendums in Crimea, Donetsk, etc illegal, then 1991 referendum about Ukraine independence should be illegal, as well (moreover, the first referendum in early 1991 was AGAINST independence, so the case for the 2nd referendum held later the same year being illegal is quite strong). They literally voted until "they" got the desired result (some suggested to do the same with BREXIT, but did not happen). People literally had no idea why they needed "independence", it was all a "western" "special operation" aided by own corrupt politicians.

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I understand that there are issues with regard to the establishment of the Ukrainian state. The various referenda, elections etc. could be argued about in perpetuity. There is no doubt that these issues should have been subject to negotiation, but whatever negotiations took place didn’t solve the problems.

No matter how the country was established, the fact is that it WAS established.....with international borders recognized by most of the world including Russia.

Russia has invaded the sovereign nation of Ukraine on two occasions....both times threatening world peace. He is waging war in order to bring the Ukraine back under Russian domination, not to fight Nazism.

I actually believe that a case could be made for indicting Putin and his generals for the Ukrainian invasions.

At Nuremberg, two of the major charges lodged against German generals were;

1) Conspiracy to Wage Aggressive War

2) Waging Aggressive War

Several of Hitters generals were found guilty and hanged for these same (and other) crimes.

Putin and his top brass have done much the same thing.....Conspiracy to wage and waging aggressive war against the Ukrainian people....

Honestly, at this point I don’t really care about who started it as much as I do about stopping it. Putin and his generals are not going to be tried in any court.

This war is getting way out of hand.

We need a negotiated settlement, NOW.

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US / CIA invaded a sovereign nation with malicious intent to threaten Russia and wage a war against it and immediately started bombing civilian population of Eastern Ukraine (mostly ethnic Russian) who disagreed with the occupation. There was definitely a conspiracy to wage a war, but not by Russia / Putin. End of 2013 Zelensky was singing on a stage in Moscow during a New Year celebration concert with Russian singers and Putin allies in the audience, all enjoying life and drinking champagne. Now they are killing each other. Should N4land and team stayed away from Kyiv and Ukraine, they would still be drinking champagne together. But team Human Misery just cannot let others thrive and be happy

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Um, if I remember correctly, the USSR/Russia actually enabled Nazi Germany through the Molotov-Ribbentrop non-aggression pact and subsequent agreements.

That treaty not only carved up Poland , dividing it between Russia and Germany, but also provided Russian exports of grain, oil, and other raw materials that Hitler needed for his military.....thus enabling Hitler to start WW2.

This of course ended June 22, 1941 with the German invasion of Russia.

The only reason that Russia fought Nazism the first time was because they had to.

They were perfectly happy with taking their share of the loot... until they were forced to fight.

I’m no fan of Russia, Putin, Ukraine, Zelensky, Biden, or this war. All the above have negatively contributed to this stupid, expensive, and dangerous war. But I hardly see Russia as the victim, ‘fighting nazism for the second time’.

Russia has invaded the Ukraine twice since 2014.

The Ukrainians did not invade Russia.

I’m pretty sure who the aggressor is......

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Well, Russia did not encircle USA with military bases, did not amass lethal weapons on its border in Mexico, did not stage a coup in Mexico and started bombing English-speaking civilian population on its border, it did not threaten to place nukes within 5 min strike capability from Washington, DC, did not collect DNA of "white Americans" with who knows what purpose, should I continue? It's quite obvious who the aggressor is.

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Russia certainly tried to encircle the US with military bases... they just didn’t have much success at it.

They set up bases in Cuba ( and tried to install nukes pointed at us).

Admittedly, this was during the Cold War... but it did happen.

I’m not happy with NATO moving east, but I can understand why the former Warsaw Pact countries are trying to join NATO..... they are afraid of Russia.

Nobody’s hands are entirely clean in this matter, not even the Russians.

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Yes, it is.

Russia invaded a sovereign country (twice) in order to return it to the Russian Empire.....piece by piece if necessary.

We are now in a dangerous situation because of Biden’s weakness, Ukrainian pig-headedness, and the Russian invasion.

I have repeatedly said that both sides are wrong. It just looks to me like Russia is more wrong.

What I find interesting is that the pro Russian people here cannot admit that the Russians have done ANYTHING wrong. In their eyes St. Vladimir is the victim and those mean Ukrainians made him send in the tanks.

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Stop it. I know real people and their stories and what happened to them after the ILLEGAL and VIOLENT overthrow of the government in 2014 and IMMEDIATE bombing of civilians started by that ILLEGITIMATE government. I also know people who died in terror attacks within Russia which is an act of war in itself. I do not know a single terror attack by Russia in any NATO country or anywhere, but there PLENTY within Russia. The only reason why Russia cannot retreat from Ukraine is NATO presence their and the escalating threat. They should leave Ukraine alone and there will be peace the next day. We all know it's about the new world order and insatiable desire of some power-hungry people to control the world and its resources. DEFENDING yourself and DEFENDING people in Donbass from the horrible NATO aggression is not a crime.

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Or maybe it has to do with Putin’s insatiable desire to re-absorb Ukraine into the Russian Empire.

And step by step, he’s doing it....

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NATO is forcing them to move the borders away from Moscow by supplying longer and longer range missiles. It's a threat. Putin warned he will not tolerate it as far back as 10 years ago or more. What's not to understand here that people do not want to become another Iraq or Lubya and have WWIII on their territory again? Is it really hard to understand?

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Feb 15, 2023Liked by epimetheus

I’m not really addressing the present issue. We could go on and on about that forever. My only point about what’s going on today is that it was Russia who waged full scale war against the Ukrainians first (twice).

I was really addressing the statement in the article about Russia fighting Nazism twice, implying that Russia was waging war against Nazism for noble, self sacrificing reasons. That’s where I call bullshit.

Stalin/Russia/USSR did nothing of the sort.

Russia, through the shameful Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and related agreements, most certainly did help Hitler start WW2.

Germany did not have enough grain, oil, etc. to go to war with Poland, Britain, and France according to his own generals.

Russia solved that problem for them by supplying those much needed resources.

The agreement, in addition to partitioning Poland (Russia and Germany invaded Poland and carved it up between them) and supplying Germany with war material also established spheres of influence between Russia and Germany and removed the threat of a two front war from Hitlers worries......leaving him free to wage war.

Russia continued to supply German needs up until Operation Barbarossa, at which point they had no choice but to fight the Nazis.

As for current mess, I know the arguments on both sides. I also know that Russia is not fighting Nazism in the Ukraine, per se.

Putin is waging war in order to get the Ukraine back, and has been (on and off) since 2014. Anyone who says otherwise is naive (or may have ulterior motives).

The Ukraine, for most of recorded history, was Russian. Kiev was the first capital of Russia. I know al of this. But the fact is that Ukraine was established as a sovereign nation after the fall of the USSR and the Ukrainians were given security guarantees by the US and the west in exchange for giving up their nukes. We guaranteed the existence of the Ukraine as an independent, sovereign nation.

The Russians signed the agreement.

Russia has not always been kind to the Ukrainian people (or many other Eastern Europeans), and many are afraid of a resurgent Russia.

I think that they have reason to worry.....

I don’t want Ukraine in NATO. It’s an unnecessary provocation. But we shouldn’t allow Russia to just absorb the Ukraine either.

The only way out of this is a negotiated peace.

I personally think that we missed an opportunity to be more helpful to Russia after the fall of the USSR, and we could possibly have formed an alliance against China......but no one in the west thought that far ahead.

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Let's set aside the WW2 issues for a moment, shall we?

I agree, Russia isn't fighting in Ukraine because there are Nazis; while it's part of their motivation, I'm the last one to deny their ulterior motives.

It is also clear that what you say is true as regards the fears of Eastern Europeans. Trouble is, I'd submit, that much of what Russia is doing is asking for security guarantees (treaties) they themselves ignore (Budapest Memorandum).

One of the key problems, I'd argue, is that treaties reflect (temporary) arrangements between (near) equals. While one may argue about the 'fairness' of this or the problematic issue about differing about the temporal nature of these arrangements, it's obvious--as per Russia's propositions in late 2021 to the US--that the Kremlin doesn't accept anyone else as its equal. I submit to you that this incl. the EU, NATO, and Kiyv, too.

The only solution is, obviously, a negotiated peace, but this will be negotiated by the US and Russia, and everyone else will have to accept this.

One of the key problems of Eastern Europeans, esp. the more rabidly Russophobes in Poland, the Baltics, and Ukraine, is that they are pushing well above their weight and are getting into great power conflicts, hence they will, likely, end up as 'collateral damage'. There's nothing I deem fine about this; to the contrary, but this is how int'l relations are, and how they've always been.

As to the missed opportunity, well, there was someone who proposed just that: Vladimir Putin, in 2001 (if memory serves), addressing the Bundestag in German. Hence, you're technically correct that no-one in the West thought that far ahead--but I'd add that this particular combination (Germany/EU + Russia) would be the Americans' nightmare, hence the sowing of discord, incl. the Nord Stream bombing.

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USSR agreed to Germany re-unification and to withdraw troops from Eastern Europe on condition NATO does not move "one inch eastward". And per Budapest memorandum, Ukraine was to be a neutral nuclear-free state. Both promises broken by NATO / neocon teams and their puppets in Ukraine. How can you trust a serial murderer he will not kill you seeing him approaching you with a knife? Russia has not been bombing any NATO country, while the opposite is true.

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Again, the war in Ukraine was started by the US neocons / CIA and their puppets shortly after the coup, creating the human catastrophe and driving people from their lands. Just because CNN did not show the movie, it does not mean it did not happen.

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